May 25 2009
Patriotism is a Form of Religion
For many Americans being patriotic is automatic. The assumption being that we are a nation of decent people, ergo, the actions of our politicians in Washington are naturally decent. The basic difference I see in patriotism and religion/belief in god; is that our national government actually exists. But the belief that “our” nation or “our” god is inherently good is nothing but fantasy. There is no god and nation states act in the interests of their ruling elites aka national interests. The belief that the
US is taking military action for some ethical or moral reason is as silly as the Noah’s ark story.
The US military likes to sell the happy fantasy that they are engaging in nation building. They have PR campaigns where they tell the electorate about all the good works they are doing in the nations they are bombing. Let’s see what those soldiers who are doing this nation building have to say.
Adam Kokesh USMC: “I learned that what we were doing in civil affairs was going to be working with the Iraqi people on schools and mosques and clinics and water projects and to me it sounded like exactly what the President was promising that we would be doing in Iraq. And I was very excited about that. I thought that we were going to be the tip of the spear. And I had to go to Iraq myself to found out that was not the case and that the greatest enemies of the constitution are not to be found in the sands of Fallujah, but rather right here in Washington D.C.”
Or the words of; Vincent Emanuele USMC: “An act that took place quite often in
Iraq was that of taking pop shots at cars that drove by. This was quite easy for most Marines to get away with, because our rules of engagement stated that the town of Al Qaim had already been forewarned and knew to pull their cars to a complete stop when approaching a United States convoy. Our rules of engagement stated that we should first fire warning shots into the ground in front of the car, then the engine block, and then the driver and passengers. Most of the time, however, the shots made their way straight to those very individuals in the car. That is if the car was even moving in the first place. Many times, cars that had actually pulled off to the side of the road were also shot at. Of course, the consequences of such actions posed a huge problem for those of us who patrolled the streets every day. This was not the best way to become friendlier with an already very hostile local population. This was not an isolated incident and took place for most of my eight-month deployment.” “Another mission our platoon was tasked to take on was that of transporting prisoners from our detention facility on base back to the desert. The reason I say the desert and not their town is because that is exactly where we would drop them off, in the middle of nowhere. Now, most of these men had obviously been deemed innocent, or else they would have been moved to a more permanent detention facility and not released back into the local population. Our unit engaged in punching, kicking, butt stroking or generally harassing and abusing these very prisoners until the point at which our unit would be take them in the middle of the desert, miles from their respective homes, and at times throw them out of the back of our Humvees, all the while continually punching, kicking and at times even throwing softball-sized rocks at their backs as they ran away. This, once again, was not an isolated incident.”The Winter Soldiers testified before congress on this Memorial Day. I know there are those who will say “war is hell” and act like that somehow changes or justifies the horrible actions that are taking place. It doesn’t. There is no excuse for doing this to our soldiers or to the Iraqi’s.
Patriotism is not what you are describing at all. It is not the belief that we, our leaders, and our policies are inherently good. It is being thankful for what we, as citizens of our Nation have, and giving support in return for all that has been given to us.
Especially on Memorial Day, when we remember those who gave their lives to bring us the liberty we have.
It does not have to mean picking up a gun to go fight, it does not have to mean never questioning anything our government does.
It means recognizing and appreciating all that being American gives us, from our lifestyle to our freedoms to our wealth to our security to our culture. It means being thankful every day for the men and women who gave these things to us (especially on Memorial Day), and recognizing that although there are bad apples (you probably work with a few sleezebags as well) the majority of our military and even our politicians are doing what they think is best for America and Americans.
http://thezspot.today.com
http://gamingtips.today.com
I recently received an e-mail from Lt. Christopher xxx of the USMC. He has been in Camp xxx in Afghanistan for 3 weeks now. He is a graduate of Brown University and one of the better trained soldiers in the world. He is also a true believer in our hunt for the Taliban and I would have to say that he is much more educated on the situation than you or I are. I have to tell you, my good friend, that I think you have crossed the line with your latest entry. This is not the venue to promote your atheistic beliefs and stating that our government is not “inherently good” begs the question: What are you doing here? As far as rebuilding countries: history would refute that assertion in a number of instances (Germany, Japan, France, Italy). I do not dispute our presence in Iraq was a major mistake but I believe the rest of the country sees that now. Finally; your persistence in criticizing patriotism is a way of belittling the sacrifices made by members of my family as well as the millions of men and women who have gone to war as a way of expressing their patriotism. I consider you a friend but I must say that I have grown tired of your distorted depiction of patriotism. Without it; you sure as hell wouldn’t be able to make some of the comments you make.
It’s pretty clear that we’ve built or improved the schools, electric and water supplies and infastructure: like roads, pipe lines and sewer systems.
A simple google search will list the projects that we have completed and I believe there is some 3500 completed projects with hundreds more in progress. But I’m sure I’m missing the point.
I think the military as a whole has done an excellent job and I’m proud of the work they have done and continue to do. Semper fi
KonaD,
Ok, sure, Google is telling you things that the auditor of said projects is not. Hmm we can believe the unidentified Google link that you failed to provide or we can believe the auditor Stuart W. Bowen Jr. Who spent 5yrs investigating and produced 250,000 pages of audits. His job is to investigate the projects you are touting. Hmm tough call. I think I’ll go with the auditor. I’m sure there is no chance that those projects, (most of which were done by US contractors) were a vehicle for graft and corruption that’s just beyond the realm of possibility. Well, that is unless you check with the man whose job it was to audit those projects. But really what does he know.
Maybe in the future if you want to hang your hat on something you will provide the link rather than just say it can be found simply. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/01/AR2009020102225.html
Try www.rebuilding-iraq.net
you will find a link to a 28 page document that lists all the projects finished or under construction by the DOD….
but, I’m sure you’ll consider it bull shit.
Tailback,
So maybe I missed something, does today.com have some ban on “atheistic beliefs”? Maybe I was under the mistaken impression that I was at liberty to express my views with out censure. If I am under some obligation to have a deity maybe I will go with Zeus.
As to your question; what am I doing here? Well, I was born here, and my being born in the US in no way reflects on the level of corruption in our government, furthermore, in democratic society’s a citizen has the right, (if not responsibility) to work to improve their government. To simply say that because you are a citizen means you must accept the inherent good in our government is more a mark of a totalitarian society than a democratic one. I am so so tired of this love it or leave it BS I can’t tell you. As if a man had the obligation because of the geography of his birth to lend his support to a national government. I am not a nationalist. “Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then? I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right.” Henry David Thoreau
As for history refuting my perception of “rebuilding nations” I am well aware of the Marshal Plan, in years gone by I took considerable interest in that plan. And I think it is possible that you are not clear on the terms of the plan. The Marshal Plan was of tremendous economic benefit to the US it was in no way an action of benevolence, it was politically expedient and profitable for US industry.
Additionally, what would you have me do with the education that many a great scholars and soldiers have given me? Throw it away because a friend I have online says he has a friend in the theater of operations that is a true believer and knows more than we do? Naturally he is correct in his perceptions and everything I have learned is meaningless? You are providing no argument but simply saying that you know a smart person who thinks I am wrong. Well ya know, being smart, a good soldier or being in the theater doesn’t mean he could not be deceived by his government. I know that may sound far fetched to you but it has happened in the past.
Lastly, as for belittling sacrifices of those who have served (your family or otherwise) OH HELL NO, YOU ARE IN ERROR. The gravity of the sacrifice is not defined by the ethics of the conflict but by the intentions and loss of those who sacrificed. Your argument is not sound. Are you belittling the sacrifice of those who died in Iraq when you say it was a “mistake”? I am simply saying that plenty mistakes have and are being made, and that the primary one is the irrational belief that nation states function with benevolence in mind. Nation states are not humanitarian organizations they are an amalgamation of the interests of the ruling elite in any society. And as such they are self interested bodies. The fact that good intentioned citizens are drawn into the service of those states and make tremendous sacrifices, in no way validates the humanitarian nature of the states actions. Neither does pointing out the greedy nature of government actions belittle the sacrifices good intentioned citizens make on behalf of those nation states. And making great sacrifice does not mean the individual has not been deceived by the tool that is patriotism. Nation states are places people are born, it does not mean that if they are good people then naturally the nation is good. To be a patriot is often to have good intention, but intentions do not define actions. One can make great personal sacrifice with pure intentions and unknowingly take actions that do not reflect their intentions in any way.
As regards Afghanistan it’s all too easy to forget the US contributions to the Taliban, al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden and simply pretend that they are diametrically opposed to US values. When they were fighting the Soviet Union US leaders were happy to funnel them a fortune through the ISI. Now the rabid dogs we once fed are the excuse we have to install leaders into nations on the other side of the world, to accidentally kill their civilians en mass and to make a mess of their nation with DU waste from our weapons. That is a bit difficult for me to swallow.
Thanx for your reply, RESPECT
Kona D,
What? I would consider it Bullshit? I gave you a link with a Washington Post article from February 2009 where the inspector/auditor for the reconstruction projects is saying that the projects were full of wasted funds, fraud and lack of accountability and in return you gave me the 2006 report from army brass (DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY OFFICE OF THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE ARMY ACQUISITION LOGISTICS AND TECHNOLOGY) Telling us what a find damn job they have done. You know brother, I don’t have to criticize it, Stuart W. Bowen Jr. the inspector has already done that work for me. I did review the 28pg report and found the “DoD Portion of Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund” particularly amusing in its distribution, but still there was nothing in the report that could possibly address what Mr. Bowen has said upon review some 3yrs later. Are you suggesting to me that we take the army at its word and not listen to the auditor who reviewed their work?
I’m not sure how what you gave me addresses my point. Namely that; those contracts “were a vehicle for graft and corruption”. There is big money to be made in nation building brah. But it doesn’t all have to go to building; much of it can go to Swiss bank accounts. So you really think there is no chance that Cheney used this “rebuilding effort” to enrich his crony’s at Halliburton, KBR and the like?
There are times when you make it impossible to debate like gentlemen. Your tendency to twist words is, at times, annoying. Your love of Thoreau is admirable but by quoting such lines as “The only obligation I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think is right.” well, HELLO ANARCHY! No human, regardless of their heritage or citizenship, has the right to do whatever they think is right. If I think it’s right to punch someone out because they happened to disagree with me; is that OK with you?
I often feel sorry for someone who either refuses or is unable to see some good in the efforts made by our government. I guess the President’s plan to enable millions of students to attend college is self-serving. The Marshall Plan was based solely on greed and corruption-sad. Considering the fact that it took decades for our country to receive payment of any sort for services rendered; I have to wonder where the greed aspect plays in.
Your portrayal of patriotism, I consider to be vile and a smite to any veteran. Who are you to question their reasons for going to war. My uncle received a Silver Star and a Purple Heart at the Battle of Bastogne. Do you feel you have the right to question his patriotism or that of his brothers (including my father) who all served. And where, exactly, did I question or minimize the efforts of those who served in Iraq. I believe the Korean and Vietnam Wars were mistakes but that doesn’t change my admiration for those who were willing to fight for their country.
In a perfect world; there would be no war but I’m afraid we don’t live in that world. North Korea is now testing the resolve of the entire world; including their only legitimate ally, China. Should we simply turn a blind eye to these threats or better yet; abolish the military entirely.
Your inability to see the good in anything our government does is disheartening. It must be difficult to live as you do-constantly seeking out the bad in every move made by those in Washington. In my home state, Ted Kennedy’s (and I’m not a big fan of the Kennedys) genuine concern for the elderly and his tireless efforts to pass the legislation to protect and preserve their dignity is laudable. To infer that there are not cases similar to that happening every day in Washington is unfortunate.
Finally; concerning your atheistic views. I, too, have difficulty believing in God but I would never blatantly say “There is no God!” How can I prove that? I certainly have the right to say “I don’t believe in the existence of God.” There is a difference.
“It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law..” Yes-prison is a much better option. Respect my brother.
Oh ho ho, so I don’t have the right to abide my conscience. I can’t believe you actually said; “No human, regardless of their heritage or citizenship, has the right to do whatever they think is right.” Really? I think sometimes a person does deserve to be punched out and what is bombing a nation if not a punching out of that nation? You might consider that US actions are a violation of LAW, but by your argument only a man need concede the right to abide his conscience but a nation can do as it pleases. Oh I twist words so you are unable to debate as a gentleman? Do not blame me for your inability to maintain your decorum in the face of my replies. I never said I could not find “some good” in efforts made by our government. I am simply saying that our government is influenced and often controlled by people like DICK FUCKIN CHENEY! You wanna argue that he is fighting the good fight? There is nothing inherently good about government action each one is subject to judgment. Part of politics is doing what will appeal to the electorate, but the electorate does not have the lobby power that major corporations do, or am I confused? Do common people have a lobby group that rivals Halliburton?
Oh no you did not question or minimize the efforts of those who died in Iraq you simply said they died for a “major mistake”, which I don’t see the difference in what you said and what I’m saying.
As for the Marshal Plan I don’t think you really give a damn about the facts it’s
just a grand example of how our nation is there to help others. Never mind how desperate those others were and never mind that the US required that the money lent stay in US banks and that the products purchased be US products and be shipped on US companies ships, it was a stimulus package for gods sake.
ARE YOU LISTENING? I NEVER QUESTIONED ANYONES REASONS FOR GOING TO WAR! You said “Do you feel you have the right to question his patriotism or that of his brothers (including my father) who all served. And where, exactly, did I question or minimize the efforts of those who served in Iraq. I believe the Korean and Vietnam Wars were mistakes but that doesn’t change my admiration for those who were willing to fight for their country.” I said “The gravity of the sacrifice is not defined by the ethics of the conflict but by the intentions and loss of those who sacrificed” I am most certainly not questioning their patriotism. I am simply saying that patriotism is not the defining measure of Just action. One can take unjust acts with Just intentions.
As for atheism, are you serious? One can not prove a negative; no one can prove there is no god. But in thousands of years of effort no one has proved there is a god. But that is not what is in question. You suggested that this is not the forum for me to express my atheistic views. As if I am not allowed to dissent from the feeble concept that men have of god, in this venue. Thank you but I will speak my mind at the risk of offence. I find the human concept of god to be pathetic and an insult to anything resembling a supreme being. And I will not go into the closet about my atheism to avoid the scorn of those who would attack me on the basis of my absence of belief.
Thanx so much for your replies, while we disagree I love the interaction.
Z,
You said patriotism means “It means recognizing and appreciating all that being American gives us, from our lifestyle to our freedoms to our wealth to our security to our culture.”
I would suggest that you are being amazingly ethnocentric and defining patriotism as something that is American. I think patriotism has nothing to do with being American it can apply to feelings any citizen has about their nation.